78 High School Kid Build

Discussion in 'The Stable' started by Thad Turner, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    And, Thad, beware...a history lesson to follow....:eek:

    Engine performance numbers are just guidelines, and advertisement. Up to 1973, all engines were rated with little to no exhaust, and NO accessories. Beginning in '73, car companies began rating their engines with a full exhaust installed and the basic accessories (water pump, alternator, and where required, an air pump), so those numbers went down. Also, in certain instances, a 4-barrel factory engine was built differently than a 2-barrel factory engine. Case in point, the Clevelands. The 351C-2V had standard cylinder heads with narrow intake runners, a run-of-the-mill camshaft, and a 'matching' dual-plane intake. Good HP, and really good torque. The 351C-4V had 'quench' style heads, bumpier camshaft, made for performance intake and carb (I got to drive my friend's '70 Chero with the 351C-4V, and it flat-out flew!). If you want to know the numbers for a late '70s 351W with a four-barrel, look at the mid-'80s Ford trucks, before EFI replaced them; they had a 5.8L-4V available then.
     
  2. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

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    No balloon popping here.
    Had I known 46 years ago when I was 17 what I know now I would have spent a lot of time with the older guys working on their 40's and 50's rods rather than at the high school auto shop.
     
  3. 1965 Ranchero 66G

    1965 Ranchero 66G In Maximum Overdrive PLATINUM MEMBER

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    Maybe so but you probably had a great time experimenting and part of that is learn as you go. Listening to everyone else and following the guideline's takes some of the fun out of it. If you have an aptitude for it it will work out.
     
  4. Thad Turner

    Thad Turner In Second Gear

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    Well my first thought was that the larger the carb the easier it was to get fuel into the engine thus making it easier to get performance. Upon looking at what you've said that makes more sense. Remember I've always worked with EFI and that is a much more exact science to me than carbs are. I had always seen the bigger the carb the more performance when I look at factory numbers so it only made sense to me that the correlation was also the causation for that specifically. We learn something new everyday. I'm sure you had questions when you were working at the age of 17. This reminds me of when I work with my dad. Who I'm sure would've corrected me if he heard how I was thinking. He understands what I'm working on more than I do because this was the stuff he was working on when he was a kid. But when it came to rebuilding my 2001 Ford Explorer Sport Trac he was lost because there were so many computers and sensors on the engine. Considering a built a computer when I was 13 and I have worked with electronics since I was really little it all still made perfect sense to me. This is the primary reason I want to move to EFI because the tuning is A. more precise and B. computer based so I can understand that a lot easier. But it all comes down to the fact that I'm learning. We all had to learn some way, for me even though we bought a Sport Trac and had nothing but problems I think the truck was well worth it's money in the amount I learned off of it. Same thing with this Ranchero. I have already learned a ton and I learn so much more every single day with this car. So please bear with me while I learn about all of this stuff, and as always I really appreciate your insight. But while we're here, what would be the effects of different sized carbs on super charging?

    Thank you for the history lesson! I wasn't exactly hoping for those exact numbers but I shared them more as a supplement to my reasoning on why I was wondering about the effects of the size of carb on the horsepower.... as we can see above I was quite wrong and it has little to no effect on the horsepower differences. I'm definitely interested in what made those engines so much faster. What would you suggest I do to my engine to make a little more power? I eventually would love to get a 460 stoker with high compression and a mild cam but as you can imagine that's quite expensive for me at this time. I'm looking more toward super charging my 351W right now.

    If you're referring to the shop that I work at I would tell you, it's no joke. We don't exactly do oil changes and brakes. We have built gorgeous cars that run FAST. We specialize in taking classic cars, restoring them and making them beautiful, then putting modern technology such as single or multi-point EFI, and solid state ignition systems to make them look classic on the outside but have all of the modern technology under the hood. I love my job and I learn a ton everyday!

    I appreciate your kind words and that's true. My dad was ASC Certified and he did plenty of car work in his day. I try to keep to myself on my projects because I want to figure it out by myself so I force myself to learn (sometimes the hard way, I'll share those stories one of these days) but I've come out much further ahead because of it. And if all else fails and I simply don't know what's wrong I can always call on my dad for help. But the fun part about working on cars at my age is that I've got nothing to lose and I can learn a ton and all of the things I'm learning will later serve me in life. Yes, I WILL ask some dumb questions in the future I can assure you that but we've all asked dumb questions and it's part of the fun of learning. I hope to one day be the old guy that helps out the teenagers with their cars when I grow out of it. Except they will probably be all electric... and autonomous.... and illegal to modify XD
     
  5. burninbush

    burninbush In Maximum Overdrive

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    A small point to make ... the secondaries on that carb are manual, push the pedal down and they'll open regardless of vacuum. It will surely seem like it has more power.
     
  6. Thad Turner

    Thad Turner In Second Gear

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    Yes they are manual, this is true. They are connected in the linkage so as you put your foot further into the gas they open about 3/4 through the first set's opening travel.
     
  7. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    While certain observations are true, you need to remember...an engine is a big air pump. And its efficiency at pumping air is tied to the design of the engine. Then, when you throw in combustion, compression, timing and fuel metering, an engine becomes a slave to the compromises necessary to make it run in certain regimes. It certainly is true the EFI and computer controls have made getting around some of those compromises easier, but there are still compromises. When you deal with carburetion, even with basic computer controls, there are going to be large gaps you can't surmount. You just have to do the best you can.
     
  8. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    And like you, I believe the future of our older cars will be tied to computer-controlled EFI and timing.
     
  9. Thad Turner

    Thad Turner In Second Gear

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    Very interesting, thank you for your insight.
     
  10. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    You're very welcome.
     
  11. PonyExpressRider

    PonyExpressRider In Overdrive

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    Another thing to remember about these older vehicles and Horsepower ratings... particularly of the late 60's to late 70's of the gas guzzling, post 1972 gas crisis... the dealers book numbers are not always truthful. For example... For my '69, Ford put out that the 428 Cobra Jet was rated at 335HP. With RAM Air 360. Carroll Shelby put one on the Dyno and got 500HP. Insurance Companies, and Federal Gov didn't like the big numbers, so the manufactures lied sorta. By detuning the motors for the purpose of keeping the numbers down, and insurance premiums affordable. The good side was that there is plenty of room to increase HP.

    Personally... even though I understand the efficiency of EFI/computer systems, I prefer the point's, timing simplicity of the none computer/EFI cars. Fuel-Air mixture, and spark at the right time. easy-peezy! :cool:
     
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  12. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    Yeah, sure...if you're Gandalf the Wizard.
     
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  13. PonyExpressRider

    PonyExpressRider In Overdrive

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    abra-cadabra o_O
     
  14. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

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    I guess that is why most of the EFI went over to MAF.
    Because MAF works exactly the same way a carburetor does.
    After years of working with EFI, it was recognized that introducing fuel proportional to air entering the engine was the best approach. From wizz-bang to 1826 in less than a generation.
    A properly tuned carb will often exceed the operation of modern fuel injection, except it won't shut off the gas during deceleration.
     
  15. Thad Turner

    Thad Turner In Second Gear

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    I've been so freaking busy lately I haven't been able to touch the project but I've been thinking quite a bit and after I get this 351W running naturally aspirated I'm kinda thinking about supercharging. I know it's so much more complicated than just strapping a blower to the top and calling it good but I would like to start the discussion of what I will have to take into consideration as far as the best setup to use on that 351. Where would you guys recommend me starting?
     
  16. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    There are threads other members have done, so search this forum, and search other forums, for carbureted Ford vehicles, for threads that deal with supercharging.
     
  17. Thad Turner

    Thad Turner In Second Gear

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    Will do!
     
  18. Thad Turner

    Thad Turner In Second Gear

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    Finally did some stuff. I have all of the pistons in and when I torque them down the crank won't move. I've seen this is a common problem. I'm going to try and locate the specific bearing that's doing it and see if I can do anything about it. Someone I know said that's a common thing and all you need to do is file down the edges of the bearings. With all of the pistons in and torqued but with the heads off, about how many footpounds should it take for me to rotate the engine? This is my first bearing job and obviously I don't want to screw anything up. Thank you all for BEARING with me through these dumb problems. Still a bit of a newbie on the really detailed engine building. I want to make it perfect if possible. All the help is always very appreciated.
     
  19. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

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    I will assume you used assembly lube.
    If you didn't measure the bearing gap, how did you choose the bearings?
    If you did measure the bearing gap, you have an out of tolerance bearing and measuring them will pin down the problem.
    With a new engine and all of the equipment required to run installed except the plugs, it should take less than 50lbs of torque to turn, and 20 or less if you don't have a close tolerance build.
     
  20. Thad Turner

    Thad Turner In Second Gear

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    Yes I used assembly lube. I ordered these bearings because they said they would fit this engine.

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/KGB-CR814SI

    If I can find only one that is tightening it and obviously is out of tolerance what can I do to fix that? Can I make it work? Or is that something I can't fix?
     

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