A quick question RE: 460 PI engine

Discussion in 'General Automotive Questions' started by handy_andy_cv64, Apr 25, 2017.

  1. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    1) I can't tell you, but we have to do a couple things between the engine and trans to address, without removing either, but if it isn't, it will;
    2) the rear cap bolt torque was there, and a hammer loosened the cap once the bolts were loose...I could see there was RTV squished in between as flat as possible, I just think it wasn't enough;
    3) I have seen someone pop a cam plug accidentally, but my thinking was acid eating it because it sat for a thousand years, so I'm losing my pro edge, which I don't like;
    4) I also have seen plugs that weren't tightened enough, causing a leak, but this engine is virgin, so it would have to be a shop mistake by the City of New Orleans.
     
  2. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    One of the things between engine and trans that we're having trouble with, is the kickdown. Both cars are '73 460/C6, but when we went to put the kickdown rod on, we rand into throttle bind. It pushes the kickdown lever CCW, instead of CW (IIRC, that's the way it's supposed to go?). So I'm not sure if the PI engine sits a bit higher, changing the geometry, or what.
     
  3. Hillbilly

    Hillbilly In Maximum Overdrive

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    Lever sits about 9:00 on the trans. shaft, kickdown rod pushes down. Lever move free and springs back without the rod attached ? If the rod is the right one it should encounter nothing to cause binding. Got the little spring that pulls the carb's kickdown link arm back to the neutral position ? Intake taller on a PI, depends on who ordered that engine and how serious they wanted to go fast. You voted with your wallet. Still not sure how that worked but PI's ranged from low rise wimps to full tilt CJ's or cross breeds that fell somewhere in the middle. May have to lengthen the rod if your's does not clear the back of the intake sufficiently.
     
  4. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    I'll have to hunt up a spring, there isn't one on either carb. The lever appears to be at 10:00, so I'll check the Bear's trans to see where it is. There's 2 levers to choose from, so hopefully, swapping the arms will do the trick. Incidentally, even though the heads are different between the engines, the intakes are exactly the same P/N, so it stands to reason both are exactly the same physically.
    So we now have a possible front brake problem, as the fluid is not wanting to come out, even with the prop valve piston pulled forward. It'll stop, after a fashion, but it's kind of scary. We drove it to the gas station, and discovered the tank IS still full! So the sender float may need repair or replacement. *sigh*
     
  5. Hillbilly

    Hillbilly In Maximum Overdrive

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    Working on a Ford always reminds me of the Gomer Pyle "Surprise, surprise, surprise" because of the never ending fun of discovering that you are never really done even if it drives good. How long did that beast vacation ? Sitting seems to be worse than driving the wheels off nowdays. Really need that spring on the kickdown as the weight of that long rod can partially activate the valve confusing the transmission. You are too close to give up now.
    Brakes ? Nothing at the front bleed screws ? Crack open a line at the frame end of a front brake hose, should get a gusher when you hit the pedal. If not the master cylinder is done for.
     
  6. plumcolr

    plumcolr In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    Try a Chrysler product of that vintage. I swear when they got an order they swept the factory floor to find the parts to build it.
     
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  7. Hillbilly

    Hillbilly In Maximum Overdrive

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    Believe me, I know. Had a super nice 63 Sport Fury with a 361 in it that was slap worn out from running it in the Mt StHelens ash. Ended up with a 426 MaxWedge from a lightweight Dodge built by the guy who ran as the Lawman in nostalgia drags. Two running similar cars but still a huge challenge getting things hooked up and looking civil. Never again !
     
  8. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    We're not running the rod right now, and of course, not romping on it. But yeah, cables sure changed the face of both downshifting as well as basic operation. GM had it right for so many years.
    As for 'hooking things up,' you know they wanna clear the parts bins before starting fresh, but sweeping the floor doesn't surprise me even at the Blue Oval Tavern.
     
  9. Hillbilly

    Hillbilly In Maximum Overdrive

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    Like finding a 1966 steering box in a 1978 Mercury ? Came from the factory like that. Or a 1970 intake manifold in the same car ? Or maybe a 1971 "N" case 9 inch Detroit locker, same car, talk about cleaning out forgotten corners.
     
  10. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    And when you find that you drop on bended knee and thank God they came to you.

    Soooooo...I gotta tell you what happened today. And I'll start off by saying that my attentive driving skills and my Navy firefighting training saved the Butterscotch Barge from two separate incidents.
    I was taking the wagon to get it inspected, so tabs can be put on it. As I'm making a left turn, on a green arrow, behind another car, I almost got clobbered by an inattentive doofus in a Suburban, running their red light. I dynamited what brakes I had, and stopped in time; so did he. I gave the wife-armed 'WTF?' look to him, then pulled through the intersection. Man, that Rim-Blow wheel works great in a situation like that....
    So I pulled in to the inspection place, a quick-lube joint, and I had to wait a few minutes. I shut off the engine, I don't yet have it dialed in, so it stinks. Anyway, after about ten minutes, the inspector comes over, tells me to start it. Well, it decided to pull a hot soak slow/no-start on me. And as I'm grinding the poor starter, very slowly, I hear a POP underhood. I hop out, open the hood, carb's got a CARB-e-cue going! Fortunately, I remained calm, as per my training, grabbed the extinguisher off the seat, put a shot across its now, flames out.
    After pushing the car out of the way (and finding out why some hated Rim-Blow wheels), I had my friend come get me, take me home, so I could get the service truck to clean up the mess and charge the battery, as it was at 12.37 volts, near basic discharge. Got it home later when Joe got off work. Ugh.
     
  11. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    Well, it's apparent there's problems with the carb and fuel delivery. For one, the fuel line has a return. But the fuel tank does not have a return nipple to hook the hose to, so there's a bolt sealing the return line. That means all pressure goes to the carb.
    The carb itself is having a choke problem. Even with hot air from the stove, and power from the stator wire, it appears to not be exerting enough force to get the choke fully open. Plus, when set, the engine speed is not coming up, even though the high idle screw is contacting the cam. So, rest today, inspection tomorrow, and hopefully tabs on it.
     
  12. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    Also, we can't find the kickdown return spring. Can someone running the 460 with the 4300-d or spread bore Holley replacement, snap a close-up pic of the spring and install, so we can obtain the correct style/size spring?
     
  13. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    Well, we've been tweaking things, and when cold, she fires right up, but has problems starting again when just warm, and will not start if hot-soaked. I know dwell and timing were correctly set, but I may have to verify there were no changes. The other thing is the transmission's kickdown lever. When the kickdown rod is on the lever, it says. We looked at the Galaxie's C6, and the lever has a spring action to it. Now, without dropping the pan, is the Barge's kickdown lever messed up? Will it require disassembly of the manual lever/valve to access the lever internally?
     
  14. Hillbilly

    Hillbilly In Maximum Overdrive

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    Heat soak is insidious, problematic, and a royal pain in the rear. Could be timing, cables, battery, starter, etc. You know to take out the possible culprits one at a time. On the kickdown lever, without the rod attached, is there any spring action ? Lever should be pointing toward the front of the car and activate the valve when pushed down in a counter-clockwise movement. The return spring is captured behind the valve piston inside the valve body. That spring is not very strong. It has enough grunt to push the kick-down lever back up but not enough push to move that long heavy kick-down rod. That is the job of the return spring at the carb. Will take a pic in daylight of the spring on the Holley on my Mercury Bear. Proper adjustment of that kick-down linkage consists of having the rod fully depressed while the carb is in the fully wide open position. You should be able to open the throttle ( primary shaft ) to around the half way position before the kick-down is activated.
     
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  15. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    That much, about the adjustment, I do know; I have had the (dis)pleasure of trying to properly adjust one. But the internal spring, is it accessible without internal disassembly...meaning, I can leave the trans in the car, work on it from underneath, and not have to remove the VB or any other major assemblies?
     
  16. Hillbilly

    Hillbilly In Maximum Overdrive

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    Bear carburetor 003.JPG Bear carburetor 004.JPG Bear carburetor 002.JPG Bear carburetor 001.JPG Pretty sure you have to drop the valve body. Has the shaft or lever been bumped or bent ? The shaft should move freely as it goes thru the shifter lever. The internal lever on the kick-down shaft only pushes on the actual valve, not physically connected to the valve. The internal lever and shaft just pokes thru the shifter arm assembly, a small "O" ring keeps the fluid in. O ring is on the external end then the arm aligned with the flats, a lock washer then the retainer nut. It should be free enough that the internal spring on the valve can return the arm to the rest position. Stopped raining just long enough to get pics of the spring at the carb lever.
     
  17. Hillbilly

    Hillbilly In Maximum Overdrive

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    Andy, that is the carb that came on this 1978 460. Square bore 3310 dual line with no egr. 750 cfm vacume secondary. Just got freshened up because it sat for years, new fuel pump and hoses but waiting for a new sock filter at the sender in the tank. Ford used the same clip on the carb end of the kick-down rod as is used to connect the wiper arms to the wiper motor on this car. Down at the trans end of the rod is a normal "C" clip. This car reminds me of Forrest Gump's box of chocolates.
     
  18. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    I'm sure that clip is loooong gone, so I'll have to snag one the next time I'm at the collector yard. Since that EGR is deleted, are you using a phenolic spacer, and how did you block the exhaust gases underneath?
     
  19. Hillbilly

    Hillbilly In Maximum Overdrive

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    Was not deleted. Never was there. Intake looks to be from 70- 71. There is a phenolic wedge shaped spacer with the provision for the pcv hose at the rear sitting next to the intake then an aluminum spacer maybe an inch tall then the carb. Dad knew what boxes to check or had enough pull to get what he wanted straight out of the factory. All I can figure on them using that wiper arm clip is it stops the kick-down rod from flopping around and wearing out the plastic bushing in the rod.
     
  20. pmrphil

    pmrphil In Maximum Overdrive GOLD MEMBER

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    The clip looks a lot like one you would see on a GM carb for kickdown or throttle pressure. Or an "E" clip will work also. I think I may have a Quick Fuel kickdown spring kit like that upstairs. Andy, let me know if you need it.
     

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