It just got ugly- How ugly ?

Discussion in 'General Ranchero Help' started by allovaagain, Dec 26, 2009.

  1. burninbush

    burninbush In Maximum Overdrive

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    Is that about where we are?

    +++++++++++++

    Yup, though there are still some questions to ponder.

    -- in the three cases that I've personally touched, the radiator survived undamaged -- I expected that to have been the first element to fail. Is it possible those tubes can expand enough to contain the larger volume?

    -- I can't get myself to believe that the entire volume of water inside a motor+radiator would freeze solid at the same instant -- there would have to be a transition period when it is slushy and able to redistribute to some degree.

    -- which reminds me, not all bottles break when the water inside freezes -- milk bottles famously survived no problem, by pushing out the plug at the top.
     
  2. Hillbilly

    Hillbilly In Maximum Overdrive

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    I don't think anyone here want's to see another engine lost to freezing Dan. Personaly have seen water flash freeze in below zero temps, it's strange to watch. Had set a pan of straight water outside the garage, guessing the water temp was about 50 degrees F. - - The water began clouding up immediately then froze solid within 15 seconds. The outside temp was -14 F.
    Took a clear gallon jug out next, you could see the ice form from the top down. What's up with that ? An Uncle cut the top off a quart of 10/40 Motorcraft oil that had been exposed to that minus 14 F. overnight. He gave up on seeing any pour out as it stayed put in the bottle looking like potting epoxy in some piece of electronic equipment. That was my introduction into why you never forgot to plug-in your block heaters in that part of Colorado.
    Question = What's the temp that current antifreeze mixes fail to stop freezing ?
     
  3. 72GTVA

    72GTVA Administrator Staff Member

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    IIRC 50% mix ratio of ethylene glycol gets you to around -38 before it freezes, a mix of 70% gets you to around -80, boiling point increases with the higher ratio mix up to and not exceeding 70% although the boiling resistance is pressure dependent and the resistance to boil is not at the same rate as resistance to freezing. In most of the US 50/50 is an acceptable mix although from a heat exchange point of view plain water sheds heat faster than any of the glycol mixes in use these days. I don't advocate a water only coolant unless it is for special applications that are drained after use and are not subjected to freezing temps.
     
  4. dads 68

    dads 68 In Third Gear

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    hey hillbilly

    you ask why the watter you put out froze from the top down? Well when you boil watter the oxygen gets out and when you let it cool off the oxygen gets sucked back in right? So oxygen is an insulator and that is why hot watter will freeze quicker than cold watter will. Cause it has less oxygen in it than cold. So your jug of watter had less oxygen in it at the top and froze there first. Am I right?
    Sorry not trying to hijack the thread but I just had to share that.
     
  5. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

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  6. 72GTVA

    72GTVA Administrator Staff Member

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    There is a procedure used in welding up cracks in steel plate and castings which is to measure the width of the split or crack, drill a hole 3 to 4 times that size in diameter at each end and then weld up the crack or split with appropriate welding rod and heat range. Has been used in most all industries including nautical since welding as opposed to riveted construction matured.

    Come on now. That wasn't what anyone wrote or implied in relation to the crack or split that dads 68 noted. No one here has suggested pounding brass into a crack. That argument is completely different from what we are discussing in sealing a core plug. From a mechanical hold aspect of whether a press fit plug or threaded plug would withstand excessive pressure I'm sure most all of us would agree that the threaded plug would probably stand up to greater force. I do not necessarily agree that it would make the side of an engine block stronger. In looking at the core plugs on all 8 Ford engines here at the moment, models between 1968 through 2009, all have press fit core plugs, all have substantial bosses cast into the area of the core plug to reinforce that area. For my applications they need not be "improved upon". Your driving style, mileage, and requirements may vary.

    I will leave it to the forum to discuss the merits for their application and the individuals to decide what they need in their engine. I'm all for bullet proof - that is in the sense of building something robust enough to withstand forseeable abuse, misuse, or error to make the item more survivable and to provide greater longevity. That is the view I take when I build my engines for the most part when economically feasible. I will even leave it to the forum to decide if, had the OP had the tapped/screw in core plugs, if instead of a pull and inspect, install new plugs as required, re-install engine and prepare it with a correct coolant mix, that he might indeed be looking at getting an engine block repaired or replaced.

    This really is turning into a "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" type of question. I've read many descriptions of why the thread in plugs are merited and were installed in certain applications, many of which describe reasons that haven't even surfaced here.

    In any event, allovaagain, I do hope that your engine turns out to be okay and that this is a very minor speed bump in getting your ride streetable.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2009
  7. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

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    I guess my humor was misplaced. Anyway with his repair there was no longer a crack, just a series of holes.
    And you are right, there are a lot of other reasons to use screw in plugs including that a blown head gasket can cause the Welch ones to fail, but this thread has found enough tangents that it did not nead any help.
     
  8. 72GTVA

    72GTVA Administrator Staff Member

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    That technique is almost the way you fix the receiver on a salvageable firearm - the only differences are that the gunsmith uses hardened plug screws and welds over the entire repair area, then re-hardens the steel to the original rockwell harness.
     
  9. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

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    Are you an AGA member too?
     
  10. 5.0 Chero

    5.0 Chero Bahumbug Staff Member

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  11. 5.0 Chero

    5.0 Chero Bahumbug Staff Member

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    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2009
  12. dads 68

    dads 68 In Third Gear

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  13. dads 68

    dads 68 In Third Gear

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    Of coarse if i would have posted a picture of me and my drill upon the request to see the machine that did the cold weld, that would have been downright genuine certified misplaced humor. And it would have been ugly ugly. It would have defined the title of the thread "How ugly" and I would not do that to you guys here on this forum.:)
     
  14. 5.0 Chero

    5.0 Chero Bahumbug Staff Member

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    Well this thread dose have a lot of GAS....
     
  15. allovaagain

    allovaagain In Second Gear

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    Ford Block Saves Self

    Drum Roll please... Original 1969 351W engine block saved itself from cracking by releasing its hold on core plugs during an unexpected flash freeze incident .
    No cracks that I could see and I have a set of brass plugs to press in when I have some time this week. Cheers everyone.
     
  16. 72GTVA

    72GTVA Administrator Staff Member

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    Good news! Thanks for the update.
     
  17. ForistellFord

    ForistellFord In Maximum Overdrive GOLD MEMBER

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    Glad to hear it! Glad they did their job.
     
  18. TestDummy

    TestDummy In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    Yeah! Those freeze plugs are awesome!!!!! Another Cleveland saved!!!
     
  19. ForistellFord

    ForistellFord In Maximum Overdrive GOLD MEMBER

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    I can't remember, is this another one of the many rare CJ blocks too?
     
  20. 5.0 Chero

    5.0 Chero Bahumbug Staff Member

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    ...................................
     

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