New Guy: New to me 77 Ranchero

Discussion in 'New Member Welcome Center' started by Doc76251, Sep 17, 2018.

  1. Jimbob

    Jimbob SITE SUPPORTER- SILVER GOLD MEMBER

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    I agree, that front bumper sticks out like a fat bottom lip...i think a contoured roll pan would look awesome on the front with all the black.

    Welcome btw!
     
  2. Doc76251

    Doc76251 In Fourth Gear

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    ribald1,
    So over the past few weeks I have been able to play around intermittently. I adjusted the timing, did the accelerator pump thing so that it squirts at a touch, adjusted the air/fuel to max vacuum, adjusted the floats to not leak from the side ports unless I rocked the car. Played with the timing again and got it idling smooth when warm, advanced it until it was hard to start and backed it off then backed it off again till the trannny didn't bang hard into gear. When it's cold and the choke is partially open it will still hesitate at about 1500 rmp when romping on it (in park) but only slightly, when it is warm it will pop and poof out of the carb significantly more. If I slow push the gas (in Park) it will climb through the rpm's nicely and run. If I blip the throttle (in Park) it will almost stall and sometimes does. If I hit it hard there is still a notable "step" at about 1500 - 2000 RPM before it goes to WOT. I also discovered that there is a 1" open riser under the carb on a dual plane Edelbrock performer manifold, I have the 4 hole version that has never been installed. I have not addressed the springs/bushings in the distributor because I don't have anything to replace them with (yet). I have a 31 pump shot in it now and based on the better performance with the choke slightly open when cold that I need a 35. What say you oh enlightened one?

    Cheers,
    Doc
     
  3. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

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    Ditch the open riser, that will interfere with the vacuum signal to the carb.
    Very likely you will find that it runs best without any riser.
    Sounds like the carb is running lean. If you have corn gas (ethanol mixed in) there like we do in CA, stock jets are too small. Going up 2 sizes (numbers) on the main jets solves it.
     
  4. aquartlow

    aquartlow In Maximum Overdrive

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    May want to have a look at how far the primary transfer slots are uncovered at idle setting(requires removal of carburetor), too much will cause an "unhealthy" stumble, this setting in image below is considered a good start point.
    [​IMG]
    I would also try the 4 hole spacer instead of the open spacer.
     
  5. Doc76251

    Doc76251 In Fourth Gear

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    Location:
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    aquartlow,

    So I'm going to yank the carb to pull the spacer, so where prezactly is it I need to look to find this view? Is the throttle closed? Opened? How much measurement wise am I looking for?

    Oh and I looked at the pics of your ride. Beautiful work! We HAVE to talk about your exhaust!!! I'm thinking simitar but bringing the mufflers forward and doing a dual 2.25" side exit with rectangle tips forward of the rear wheels.

    Cheers,

    Doc
     
  6. aquartlow

    aquartlow In Maximum Overdrive

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    Location:
    Summerfield Florida
    Doc,
    Thank you for the compliments, much appreciated!
    The view in the pic is of the carburetor removed and looking at the underside of the carb showing primary throttle blades as they rest at idle against the curb idle screw, it shows how much of the transfer slots "should" be uncovered. The measurement is roughly .020-.025", but some engine combos (like ones with a lumpy cam with a good bit of overlap) may like a little bit more somewhere between .025-.040" depending on how "lumpy" the camshaft profile is. I realize it can be difficult to measure this, so I shoot for the uncovered transfer slot to look like a square since Holley carbs' transfer slots measure about .025" in width. If your idle is too low with having adjusted the curb idle screw to get the transfer slots uncovered to the proper amount, you can slightly adjust the secondary throttle blade stop(adjusted from underneath-must remove carb) from just where the secondary blades JUST close against the throttle bore plus another 3/4 to 1 full turn open gain the necessary rpm, be careful not to uncover any of the secondary transfer slot. This may help https://www.onallcylinders.com/2013...operly-set-up-the-idle-on-holley-carburetors/

    If there is anything I can do to help you with, please don't hesitate to ask, always glad to help if possible.
     
  7. Doc76251

    Doc76251 In Fourth Gear

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    Location:
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    aquartlow,

    OK, I yanked the carb and pulled the plate (and now need new studs). After dropping the lock washer from the air cleaner shaft down the throat of the carb I figured I'd better take it off and fish it out before bad things happened. Well I followed the link you gave me and my secondary butterflies were WAY shallow, like 5+ turns before I got them to the transfer slot. Now looking at the primaries my transfer slot is at least a proud 1/8' ?!?!?!? The idle screw is ALL the way out and it will not close anymore as it is bumped up against the orange plastic cam that is installed. I am at all stop because I need new carb studs and some 1/4' all tread to make the air cleaner fit. Is there anything I should be worried about right now when bolting it back together?

    Cheers,

    Doc
     
  8. aquartlow

    aquartlow In Maximum Overdrive

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    Location:
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    Remove the small flat bladed screw holding the pump cam in place to verify the throttle blades will close further, at least to uncover less of the transfer slots. If the arm is metal, you can bend the accelerator pump's linkage arm with needle nose pliers to get the needed throttle blade position(this may take a few tries to get it correct) AND the required clearance between the pump cam and accelerator pump linkage arm @ WOT(about .015"). Once carb is installed another thing to look at that most never check is to make sure the throttle blades are completely vertical when the accelerator pedal is on the floor(do this with engine off ;)). I would also try the 4 hole spacer before purchasing new carb studs, I can't remember when seeing and/or reading where an engine ran better without a carb spacer installed, possibly when a tunnel ram was used but never a regular dual plane or single plane intake. Good luck. Todd
     
  9. Doc76251

    Doc76251 In Fourth Gear

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    Location:
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    Todd,
    OK!!! That was exciting, NOT. Got new studs and dropped the carb on the intake. Fired it and it went straight to 2500 rpm, as the choke came off it stalled at about 1300. Screwed the air fuel screw all the way in and backed them out a 1/4 turn both sides. The motor still idles at about 1200 rpm, the idle screw is barley touching. Undid the orange cam thing and it would not settle down. Put it back. The car at idle bounces from 800 to 1200 rpm but stalls when putting it in gear. That said at 800 if I romp on it it does not hesitate. Something somewhere is not right.

    Cheers,
    Doc
     
  10. 1965 Ranchero 66G

    1965 Ranchero 66G In Maximum Overdrive PLATINUM MEMBER

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    Just my two cents but seat the air fuel screws and then back them out 2 1/2 turns to start then adjust from there, not 1/4 turn.
     
  11. Doc76251

    Doc76251 In Fourth Gear

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    Location:
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    1965 R,
    I would normally agree even with my limited experience. I think the issue here is something larger. I can't seem to get the primary throttle to "relax" enough to tone down the idle. I think I may have to play with the pump a bit. It was getting dark and I figured I would call it for a day. There is something keeping the primaries open too far but I don't know enough right now to address it.

    Cheers,

    Doc
     
  12. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

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    A carb spacer helps high rpm operation by reducing the turn right at the carb exit. This comes at the expense of low end torque as it diffuses the vacuum signal to the carb as each intake valve opens.
    An engine doesn't run better with or without a carb spacer, it just runs differently. A carb spacer is just another tool to play with the torque curve.
     
  13. Doc76251

    Doc76251 In Fourth Gear

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    Location:
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    So here's pics (I hope) of what I did on the secondaries
    [​IMG]
    This is the primary
    [​IMG]
    I'm thinkjng the primary is waaaay too open but for the life of me I can't figure out any way to get them closed more

    All thoughts are appreciated.

    Cheers,
    Doc
     
  14. aquartlow

    aquartlow In Maximum Overdrive

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    Location:
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    Close the secondary throttle blades just so you don't uncover ANY of the secondary transfer slot, really want the blade just below the slot. The primary T-slot is WAY too far exposed, hard to tell exactly but it looks to be 1/8" to 3/16" of the T-slot exposed, about .100" to .150" too much. Get the T-slot exposure to .020"-.025" and you should experience the benefits immediately. Have a look at the choke linkage and the choke cap settings, could be a culprit, also look at how the primary blades are centered in their bores(usually a non-issue but just something to confirm). This may have some useful info and/or reveal the non-closing throttle issue: https://forums.holley.com/entry.php...tric-Choke-On-A-Holley-Four-Barrel-Carburetor. Hope this helps.
     
  15. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

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    Primary is open far too much.
    A lot of steps were skipped getting to this point.
    The choke has to be open and off the high idle stop before even looking at the bottom of the carb. Generally it is best to remove the choke control and wire it open first.
    next, back out the idle adjust screw (not the air fuel screws) and check for proper operation by manually opening and closing the butterflies, making sure they close all the way and open without resistance or sticking.
    Now turn the carb over.
    Adjust the idle screw until the visible part of the transition slot is square, do the same with the secondaries using the stop screw on the bottom of the carb.
    Set the air/fuel screws in GENTLY to the bottom and then back them out 2-1/4 turns.
    Install the carb and choke assembly.
    Start the car. If the idle cannot be set with 1-1/2 turns or less on the idle adjustment screw you have to remove the carb, adjust the secondary a little and try again, repeat until right.
    Set your air fuel and roll.
     
  16. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

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    My bad, Tod is right, the transfer on the secondary should be closed. If it ends up exposed you need to drill a hole in the main butterfly
     
  17. Doc76251

    Doc76251 In Fourth Gear

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    Location:
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    OK I think that perhaps the root of the issue is that the secondary throttle was never adjusted and all of the other bits were by the previous owner trying to compensate for that maladjustment. Hence the curb idle was barely touching, the vacuum spring was nudging the pump open and the fuel/air screws were turned most of the way in. This allowed for fair response on the throttle when cold (due to the electric choke being open) and crappy response when warm.

    As far as I can tell the secondary butterflies are not affected by any outside source while at rest and come into play at WOT or there abouts via vacuum (hence vacuum secondary).

    In the pic above it may look like the secondary transfer slot is a bit more than "square" but that is mostly due to me fingering it to see if there was some connection to the primary. When flapping the butterflies it stopped at "square" or slightly less.

    I saw the primary transfer slots completely exposed and knew something was off but could not figure out how to get it more closed than at the stops. That the motor went to 2500rpm when it first started and then stalled as it approached "normal idle" and/or when putting it into Drive indicates that all the other adjustments were lost in the weeds of the high idle screw being totally out of whack due to the secondary being off so much. Much as I was able to coax some modicum of idle by starving the motor this afternoon.

    If that logic (or il-logic) holds true I should be able to......
    Put the timing back where it was because I screwed with it to keep it running,

    a) slow down the cold start idle by adjusting the fast idle screw CCW
    b) reset the curb idle screw and actually have some adjustment
    c) reset the fuel/air screws to max vacuum
    d) reset the vacuum pump actuator to just squirt when the throttle is touched
    e) hen go back and do it all again to fine tune it

    What say you?

    Cheers,

    Doc
     
  18. beerbelly

    beerbelly In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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    Another thought: bolt on an Edelbrock carb, enjoy the drivability & performance, and cruise to your local Sonic for a couple of chili dogs with your wife/girlfriend.
     
  19. Doc76251

    Doc76251 In Fourth Gear

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    BB, HA!! that's not the first time Ive heard that. That said the fun of relearning something but learning it better is still outweighing the frustration. Besides it is a project car and I can afford to have it down, which is good because the only gauge in the car right now is the tach. So that leaves me about two weeks to figure out the carb and get the aluminum cut for the new dash. What to wrap it in?.?.?... Burl wood or carbon fiber....... the pursuit continues

    Cheers,

    Doc
     
  20. beerbelly

    beerbelly In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

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