Ranchero 77-78 questions!

Discussion in 'General Ranchero Help' started by Karpov, Mar 5, 2010.

  1. RANCHEROROB

    RANCHEROROB In Maximum Overdrive GOLD MEMBER

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    Most 351/400's were fitted with severely retarded timing chains and camshafts to help meet stringent pollution control standards -- Yep. This is true too. After 1973, Ford started putting the retarded "smog" camshafts in the 400 and the 351M had the "smog" camshaft throughout it's entire production run. But come on, who do you know that would actually put a 100% original Ford timing chain and camshaft back into their engine during a rebuild? There are many quality aftermarket cam shafts out there by companies such as Comp Cams, Crane, Wolverine, Isky, and Edelbrock. Again, Problem solved.

    http://www.projectbronco.com/Technical_Articles/Dispelling_the_rumors.htm

    Retard
    delays intake event
    opens intake valve later

    http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,142.0.html
     
  2. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

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    Putting an aftermarket cam in your motor that matches your build will actually acomplish an increase in power, and is the proper approach.
     
  3. burninbush

    burninbush In Maximum Overdrive

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    Look at your cam specs, then look at a performance cam specs. You will see the difference. >ribald

    ++++++++++++++

    OK, so where are the Ford cam specs for those smog cams?

    I would like to do the comparison you suggest. You must have seen them somewhere to be able to state that the retard is different for intake and exhaust lobes. I have the Ford factory manuals but all they show is total lift, nothing about duration / overlap / timing. I don't know how a person could know that detail without having one on a profiling machine.
     
  4. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

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    If you are too lazy to look it up, then you will probably never know.
    Also, you don't need a profiling machine, just a degree wheel and a dial indicator with mag stand. I know you have those or you don't know if your cam is 5 degrees advanced or 8 retarded.
     
  5. RANCHEROROB

    RANCHEROROB In Maximum Overdrive GOLD MEMBER

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    Camshafts
    Ford used at least five different camshafts in production M-block engines from 1971 to 1982. The following table lists M-block camshaft part numbers and vehicle applications.

    Model Year
    Part Number
    Notes

    1971-1973
    D1AE-6250-A
    Original 400 car camshaft.

    1974,
    1977-1979
    D4AE-6250-A
    '74 400 car, all '77-'78 351M/400 truck, '79 400 HD truck.

    1975-1979
    D4AE-6250-B
    All '75-'79 351M car, '78 351M Bronco, '79 351M HD truck.

    1975-1979
    D5AE-6250-A
    All '75-'79 400 car.

    1979-1982
    D9TE-6250-A
    All '79 351M/400 LD truck, '80-up 351M/400 truck.


    The following table lists M-block camshaft specifications. Valve events and duration are specified at 0.004" on opening ramps and 0.006" on closing ramps.

    Camshaft
    Duration
    Gross Lift
    Valve Event Timing

    D1AE-6250-A
    256/272
    0.422/0.427
    Intake: 17BTC/59ABC
    Exhaust: 71BBC/21ATC

    D4AE-6250-A
    250/272
    0.428/0.433
    Intake: 17BTC/53ABC
    Exhaust: 65BBC/27ATC

    D4AE-6250-B
    258/266
    0.406/0.406
    Intake: 19.5BTC/58.5ABC
    Exhaust: 58.5BBC/27.5ATC

    D5AE-6250-A
    258/266
    0.428/0.433
    Intake: 12BTC/66ABC
    Exhaust: 66BBC/20ATC

    D9TE-6250-A
    254/256
    0.433/0.433
    Intake: 18BTC/56ABC
    Exhaust: 62BBC/14ATC
     
  6. burninbush

    burninbush In Maximum Overdrive

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    The following table lists M-block camshaft specifications. Valve events and duration are specified at 0.004" on opening ramps and 0.006" on closing ramps. >R.Rob

    ++++++++++++

    Killer -- thanks for the info, Rob.

    I wonder if there's enough info there to plug the numbers into a cam design program? It might be possible to do better than a wild guess at the effect of an advance from zero timing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 6, 2010
  7. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

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    I have dyno software for that purpose, but it is much more than just the cam timing. The engine build, gear ratios and weight need to be known, at minimum, to get comparative tourque and HP curves. The engine data has 42 fields.
    I will say this. Changing your cam timing for the hell of it is like kicking a dog you do not know. The possible outcomes vary wildly.
     
  8. CJ Guy

    CJ Guy In Maximum Overdrive

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    I am so sorry I posted this, it serves no purpose here at Ranchero.US... sorry
     
  9. 72GTVA

    72GTVA Administrator Staff Member

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    Sort of wish we wouldn't go off in this direction - I think your post(s) had merit and adds to the discussion - it is clear from RancherRob's post that there is a difference in the Camshaft Profiles. The question posed by burninbush is a good one in the sense that it adds to our understanding of what was done in the smog era that took a lot of the power away from these cars and gave so many good engines a bad reputation. I think one of the key things highlighted by this is that the shop manuals don't contain enough information about the camshaft grinds to be helpful to us, and when you add the anecdotal information about what advancing or retarding the camshaft timing does for the person trying to "tune" an engine to their needs it gets very confusing. It also highlights that there isn't a lot of readily available information on the actual grinds used.

    I looked in multiple books for the actual grinds, lobe data, etc. and didn't find it in the common sources. It is okay to write that we don't have the specifics on such a question, as shown here, someone else may be able to find the information or has a source that others of us don't have to get it.
     
  10. Karpov

    Karpov In First Gear

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    Nice talk!


    But... :D


    Im stupid and my english is bad so i need more exact iformation but i now too you had nice conversations and argument, i dont understand allmost anything :D


    Well..

    Lets take clear example:

    If motor is M and i switch only carb, intake, and but headers + flowing air filter + exhaust, how much power i get more? how about if i but these Maybe timing chain or what ever part what does power but arent piston, head tms inside of engine. You can tell also how much more cam will give!


    That was own example!


    How about if motor is W and i but same wiring on it?


    I want 300hp easily, can i get it in M or W if i change pistons, crank etc?


    Starting point is good looking car with easily tuneable engine (i know m isnt it??)

    I dont want mopar no no no! gm is too little bit .... bad on my opinion.


    Maybe hard to understand what im saying but i try be clear :D im very flattered about this topic and i use dictionary often!


    Its poor because i affraid ''big'' engine repairs and there finland, usa cars are rare --> repairs costs and places are far apart. Yes we have still many usa workshops here combaraply with our carbase which contains japan and european cars maintence, but point is big costs.
     
  11. 72GTVA

    72GTVA Administrator Staff Member

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    Just those changes would not get you to your goal of 300 horsepower in either a Windsor or 351M engine. You would see some improvements but not near what you want.

    For what you indicate you want given your stated mechanical skills, you might be better served to get a new engine or a "crate engine" built complete to your stated goals. There are some Ford Motorsport engines available that would meet those requirements and other engine builders that can build either engine to meet those goals. Perhaps the thing to consider is get the car you want with the best possible body condition that you can find and get the replacement engine to have installed. Might be a little expensive up front but once it is in the car it should give you some years of trouble free performance with normal routine maintenance. JMHO. Good Luck!
     
  12. Karpov

    Karpov In First Gear

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    Thx! That engine will be cheaper in usa, finland price for 300hp crate windsor is +5000$! How about usa? if that would come ranchero´s tail when that comes finland to the ship...



    How much power the carb-int-header combination will give in numbers? Because if i but new camshaft, it allmost same as bigger modifications...



    ps. how much technically ok and painted + fine exteriored ranchero will cost? finnish car tradesman asks 4000$ and car to finland, without shipping price is about 2000$, pretty much?
     
  13. Giska1

    Giska1 In Maximum Overdrive

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    Hi Karpov, my Baby Blue 72 costed me 6000$ in the us, and with all the shipping, tax and government cartax its just under 10000$ on the road here in Norway, and i'm pleased with that :rolleyes:

    As you see here a lot of the topics takes of in big discusions, but all in good spirit well almost he he:D

    The reason the parts are expensive here in the north of europe are the guarantee on them and the cost of having them in store.:eek:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 7, 2010
  14. rida4christ

    rida4christ In Second Gear

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    How do I know what I really got.
     
  15. shoprat

    shoprat In Fourth Gear

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    I don't know what you've been reading....but advancing a cam is for
    bottom end not top end.
     
  16. Torkair

    Torkair In Maximum Overdrive

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    If possible find a Ranchero with a 400 motor, that will be a better engine for power than either of the 351 motors. Depending on the intake, carb, and headers you can see drastic power differences, the biggest determining factor for power in your motor will be camshaft and heads, the easier of the two being the installation of the cam shaft, in my personal opinion.
     
  17. HuevosRanchero

    HuevosRanchero In Maximum Overdrive

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    nah CJ I think this was actually interesting and important. There are many "assumptions" about what will work and what will not or make even slight improvements. I too believe you have to plan the whole engine build ..the piecemeal approach is a crapshoot (been there done that live and learn)....For street driving the stock specs work pretty well to move these heavy beasts around (72-79) especially big blocks..cant speak for the 302's
     

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