351W Nightmare! Help Please!?

Discussion in 'General Ranchero Help' started by El Ranchero, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. El Ranchero

    El Ranchero In First Gear

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    San Diego
    I've created a Frankenstein and it's going to kill me. Any advice is welcomed. 1971 Ranchero, sold the old 302 and bought a 1989 351W EFI out of a cargo van E350. Over hauled the block with new pump, crank kit cam bearings , honed the existing .030 cylinders and installed new 030 cast iron rings and mated it to a set of 1970 351W heads fully rebuilt w/new everything (Melling VS280 dual springs 90 psi seat pressure at approx 1.820 installed ht) and a 1969 4V intake with a 4300 Motorcraft. The cam is an EngineTech ECK2822R kit with flat tappet lifters 0.512 lift firing order 15426378 (same as the old 302). New Cloyes C3057K double roller timing set with 2pc. pump eccentric. Tossed the old EFI timing cover for a Chinese aftermarket that takes a mechanical fuel pump, getting 6 PSI fuel pressure at the carb.
    Son of a bitch started for about 10 seconds, ran crappy, died. Got it running again , ran crappy, died. Again tried to set timing but kept dying so timing is somehwere around 6 - 10 BTDC but who knows, cant be sure. Soon as the new 180 thermostat opened, engine began knocking, died, and never started again. Checked specs on coil, OK. 1.4 ohms on pos and neg primary windings, but I am not sure I'm reading the multi-meter secondary specs correctly, getting 800 when book says should be 8000. Resistance ignition wire seems to be pulling 7 volts but I'm not much of an electrician! The old 302 ran fine with this same coil and wiring harness.
    Checked point gap, 0.020" approx. Grounded the plug wire gets blue spark. New rebuilt distributor, new cap rotor wires and plugs Autolite 45s gapped 035". Warm compression in No.1 cylinder was 160 psi, next morning, cold No.4 was 120. Tried fresh gas from gas can, no go. Tried starting fluid no go.
    The cam is supposed to fit every Windsor from 1963 to 1997. Crank is the 1989 crank, only one keyway on timing sprocket set the sprockets "dot to dot"...I even pulled the whole front of the motor off again to make sure the chain was on right, dot to dot!!
    Im so depressed.
     
  2. TestDummy

    TestDummy In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

    Messages:
    23,310
    Location:
    C'Ville
    There are so many things that could be wrong, I don't know where to start, other than.....The fact it started, and ran crappy, is sort of encouraging. Triple check the firing order, if you haven't. Other than that, could be lifters need adjusting. Could be anything.
     
  3. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

    Messages:
    19,727
    Location:
    California
    Firing order for a 351 is 13726548
     
  4. RANCHEROROB

    RANCHEROROB In Maximum Overdrive GOLD MEMBER

    Messages:
    3,552
    Location:
    Pueblo de Los Angeles, Aztlan
    The cam is supposed to fit every Windsor from 1963 to 1997
    =========================================
    did the cam instructions say what firing order to use ?

    If you used 13726548
    try 15426378
     
  5. RANCHEROROB

    RANCHEROROB In Maximum Overdrive GOLD MEMBER

    Messages:
    3,552
    Location:
    Pueblo de Los Angeles, Aztlan
    Sorry, didn't read your complete post.

    Try closing the choke and block carb with a rag and start engine.
    If it stays running and smooths out you have a bad vacuum leak.
     
  6. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

    Messages:
    19,727
    Location:
    California
    I didn't look at the cam specs, he is running a 302 cam.
     
  7. burninbush

    burninbush In Maximum Overdrive

    Messages:
    8,423
    Location:
    near SF
    Only thing I would add is to reduce the point-gap, try setting to .016 instead. At .020 you might miss a few cylinders.

    You can set the timing without the motor running; with the #1 piston and valves at TDC, back the crank (CCW) to the 10 degree mark. Then rotate the distributor body until the coil fires, lock it down. At that point the rotor will point to the #1 piston.
     
    El Ranchero likes this.
  8. El Ranchero

    El Ranchero In First Gear

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    San Diego
    Hey Guys! Thanks for the tips.
    TestDummy--new lifters with kit, I am a Chevy guy and had to relearn about Ford pushrods, what a curve! But after about a hundred$$ in various length pushrods (some come single, some in sets of 16, some need to return for refund--sheesh!) I got them all locked down at 1/4 to 1 full turn. Just hope the cam doesn't pull out the studs! My machinist told me I'd be OK but he's 83 and , well, I'll find out if he's right...
    Ribald1-- The cam spec sheet said to use the302 firing order and after towing the car 100 miles to my machinist (AAA Premium Plus thank God) he verified that it is indeed 15426378. But he said he doesn't know the camshaft brand EngineTech and told me I should've used Comp Cams. Which of course didn't help me much.
    RANCHEROROB-- In the short time I had it running, I tried choking the carb up and it died faster. It would run for ten or 15 seconds at a time before dying, maybe 5 times total, enough to get the thermo to open. Working the carb and starter solenoid, I didn't have arms long enough or fast enough to grab the start fluid to spray around for leaks but I am confident my gaskets are pretty solid. However that remains a question.
    Burninbush--interesting handle ya got there--- I am thinking you have a point about closing the gap, no pun intended. I'm going to turn the crank from TDC No. 1 , 90* through two revolutions and check each cylinder to see where the valves are if they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. And I'll try your suggestion on the static timing (never done that before that way...)
    BUT NOT TODAY! I gotta take a break...
    Thanks again. I'll post what I find.
     
  9. pmrphil

    pmrphil In Maximum Overdrive GOLD MEMBER

    Messages:
    1,416
    Location:
    central CT
    Enginetech cams are usually federal mogul/speed pro, just repackaged. Not an issue. I'm guessing, you do know the distributor rotation is counterclockwise, right? Some chevy guys don't. Are the plugs wet? Could it be flooding? When you said choking it made it die quicker it made me wonder.
     
    El Ranchero likes this.
  10. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

    Messages:
    11,915
    Location:
    Seguin, TX
    Also, is the carb new, used or rebuilt? I have seen so many engine swaps go full-on nightmare because the carburetor or injectors don't get budgeted in to the rebuild, so any problems that were masked by the tired engine come out to play. Things that popped into my mind were: unrebuilt carb leaks, sunk floats, worn needles and seats, too much carb for the actual displacement and cam. So, if the ignition checks out, consider those areas of the carb that can affect the air/fuel ratio.
     
    El Ranchero likes this.
  11. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

    Messages:
    19,727
    Location:
    California
    And #1 is on the other side, passenger side
     
  12. El Ranchero

    El Ranchero In First Gear

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    San Diego
    Hey Handy Andy, the carb was provided by a Ford mechanic who told me it was good, but it is unrebuilt by me. Accelerator pump works fine, plugs are not fouled from the short time it ran. There is residual pressure in the fuel line after shut down which I don't expect with a sunk float. No fuel pouring out anywhere I can see, but plenty good squirt from throttle pump. Prior to this I had a 2V manifold and brand new rebuilt 2100 on it (cost $210 !!) and ran pretty much the same way. Im trying to include a pic of the timing marks and EngineTech told me they repackage name brand parts, Melling cams and valvetrain , Silvo-Lite and Keith Black pistons, Hastings rings etc. I think he said , so the cam is probably OK.
    I think I got the pic uploaded.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. beerbelly

    beerbelly In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

    Messages:
    3,271
    Location:
    Portland OR
    Timing marks look OK.
     
  14. El Ranchero

    El Ranchero In First Gear

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    San Diego
    Hey everybody! Ureka or Eureka !
    Burninbush you're a genius. I took the point gap down from .020" to .016" or as close as I could get it, then static timed the distributor and squirt starting fluid. Fired up and I throttled it up til it smoothed out!!
    The book called for .021" point gap for dual diaphragm , .017" for single diaphragm dist. and .020 for the 302HO dual point dist.
    As we used to say in 1971 ... far out, man.
    Thanks all. If anybody wants 2v parts and a set of 89 heads I'll make you a deal...
     
    Saff54, pmrphil and 1965 Ranchero 66G like this.
  15. El Ranchero

    El Ranchero In First Gear

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    San Diego
    THANK YOU BURNINBUSH! I owe you big time.
     
  16. TestDummy

    TestDummy In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

    Messages:
    23,310
    Location:
    C'Ville
    He is by far the oldest member here. That's why he knew about the points. His first car was a Brontosaurus.
     
    Kiwirancher likes this.
  17. handy_andy_cv64

    handy_andy_cv64 In Maximum Overdrive SILVER MEMBER

    Messages:
    11,915
    Location:
    Seguin, TX
    And his fave tune is "Walkin' the Dinosaur!"

    That's cool you got it; I'd have to look, but I think the .021" spec is for dual-points distributors. Getting it down to .016" is in the realm of a single-point set, and that should allow you to dial up the dwell a smidge, to get it as close to 30* as possible. Then check/set your timing.
     
  18. ribald1

    ribald1 Banned PLATINUM MEMBER

    Messages:
    19,727
    Location:
    California
    The point gap and the dwell are two different measurements of the exact same thing. One cannot be changed independent of the other.
    The gap is a measurement of degrees open, dwell, degrees closed. When one changes, the other moves in tandem.
     
    Hillbilly likes this.
  19. PonyExpressRider

    PonyExpressRider In Maximum Overdrive

    Messages:
    1,312
    Location:
    Sutherlin, OR
    I tried using "book" settings on my all stock big block... ended up those were just starting points... ended up using about 16degrees of advance (without vacuum), and after adding vacuum total advance is 32Degrees. And I am using Manifold vacuum... one of my experts saved me a lot of time with... if its has smog, ported vacuum. Non-smog, manifold! Still fine tuning... but don't be afraid to tune it by sound and feel!
     
  20. burninbush

    burninbush In Maximum Overdrive

    Messages:
    8,423
    Location:
    near SF
    Ahhh, success. Good luck with it. As a further recommendation, go to the junkyard and find a Duraspark distributor, leave the point hassles behind. FYI, a 351 will use the distributor that comes with a 5/16" hex shaft. Not sure what years had them, but look for 1974 or later. Wiring is simple, look it up on google.

    I suspect that the book timing setup is for a brand new distributor -- but an old one with miles will have some timing points worn down, enough so that it'll completely skip some cylinders. For the record, I discovered this one day on my '71 Chero, some years back. And as soon as it was running I headed to the junkyard for a Duraspark.
     
    TestDummy likes this.

Share This Page